Curse

You can't see me · Jan 05, 2008, 02:02 AM // 02:02

I don't see any reason why a party with a full bar of eight humans should be rewarded any further than a bar with two humans and six AI substitutes. The translation of your thread is "Play my way. It's better, and therefore, we should encourage it, no matter how others enjoy playing."

What is so important about PuGing, in your opinion? What is the value of playing with other humans? What is the value of taking an hour to put together a group and accomplishing the same thing in a few more minutes than it would take a person and his heros to finish, that were put together in less than one? What's the point?

People say "PuGing encourages social play. Social play is a good thing. This is how the game was designed. This is how it was meant to be. This is how 100% of players should play, because I refuse to use what is given to me by Nightfall, and insist on forcing other players to come with me, and put up with whatever inability to play I may have, versus taking their knowledge and skill, and setting up builds they know will work to accomplish it in a faster time than 90% of PuGs."

To this, people say, "Well, if the other player has an inability, then you teach them. You don't yell at them for agroing a group you didn't want them to agro, and killing your mission team. You calmly teach them to not agro. You then enter the mission again, and watch them do the same thing after you have specifically told them not to. You fail, and tell them again. Finally, you move on in the mission, where, on the last group, the person you just taught about not agroing unwanted mobs, runs into the center of the huge army that awaits you at the end of the mission."

It is not my duty, responsibility, or obligation, or, it is not any player's to teach someone how to become good at a game. I will gladly help a guild mate if he is stuck, and I will gladly give advice, but I do not play Guild Wars to serve as a teacher for every PuG I join. I do not play Guild Wars to boost the accomplishment of everyone in the game that I, in that situation, to gain a better reward, would be forced to group with to gain. There's no reason that a game should reward you for utilizing option B instead of option A. There's just not.

Well, you say to me, if you don't like it, you don't have to do it. My question to you is, alright, I will not, but where is my reward? Why should I not be rewarded for using my knowledge of successful builds in an area, or my good team balencing? Why should I not gain these fortold chest? Is my playstyle of less worth than yours? Is my playstyle not to your liking? Is my playstyle the wrong way?

No matter the method, a reward for doing an activity should be the same for everyone. If person X lifts a weight with his friend's help, and person Y lifts it with a pulley he has cleverly set up, why should person X be rewarded more? He did an equal amount of work, just as players who use heros utilize builds that synergize together, and play their part on the party, just as a person in an 8 man group would. There's no excuse for rewarding other methods of accomplishment more than some.

In no way will this idea ever meet my personal approval, but that's not what is important here. What's important is that people stop looking down on others who enjoy solo play. There is nothing wrong with it, and nothing "Anti Social" about it. I don't need a teacher over my head telling me to go play in a more crowded sand box instead of the one I'm currently in. That's useless, and has no place in Guild Wars. If I wish to talk to people, I utilize the two chat tabs labeled "Guild" and "Alliance". They are there for you as well. If you enjoy social activity, you may use them.

You play your way. I respect that, but do not for one second think that your way is any more valuable than the ways of others.

No.

Vinraith · Jan 05, 2008, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Punish solo and small group players and we will, rightfully, take our business elsewhere. It's not in Anet's best interest to bribe people to play together. If you're intent on playing with others and can't find a group, join a better guild. If you still can't find anyone to play with you, it's not the game, it's you.

Kanyatta · Jan 05, 2008, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by strat_53711

An example, completely clearing an Sorrows Furnace in Hard Mode with a full party (no heros or henches) You can even make it more unique by requiring only one of each primary class.

Ever think that one of each primary class would be difficult to get? I rarely see Paragons or Mesmers around Sorrows Furnace.

Also, people that want more PUGs, most likely fail with heroes/henchies hardcore.

JeniM · Jan 05, 2008, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Don't see any harm in this but it does make solo play even less rewarding
I bet the people that say "don't solo then" are the same people that /notsign the hard hard mode threads by saying theres lots of ways of making the game harder without making anet do more programming. Solo play is harder and should get more drops but i've wandered WAYYY off topic so i'll stop there

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra-Sweet

Whats with all these Dear ANet threads? Asking nicely won't get you far since our dear ANet is too busy with GW2.

Its the latest fad, it was "petition : x x x" and "petition : y y y" before the "dear Anet" threads. Want to know the big secret, the "dear anet" thing was a play on "dear santa" and xmas is over so can we have the next fad please?

genofreek · Jan 05, 2008, 03:18 AM // 03:18

No thanks. I PUG occasionally, but I don't want to be forced to do it just to get some cool new item.

Tyla · Jan 05, 2008, 03:23 AM // 03:23

/notsigned
just NO! pugs these days ignore Rangers, Mesmers, Assassins and Ritualists as they always have.
Cookie Cutter will take over.
I also agree with what Loki said, it would fail out loud.

mystical nessAL · Jan 05, 2008, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Wow, did you really think about this idea alone?

Abedeus · Jan 05, 2008, 06:33 AM // 06:33

How about... Reward people that play in groups of 2? And 6 AI, whether heroes or henches. Or reward for people playing with 7 AI, alone. And maybe a reward for playing only an hour a day? That'll be cool.
[/sarcasm] /notsigned

Skyy High · Jan 05, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

So...basically you want them to create a new farming spot because you can't get a group for the ones we have right now (Slaver's, DoA, etc)? What makes you think that you'll be able to get a group in this area; people will still be discriminatory and exclude people, be jerks, or just run with guildies. And, even if you did manage to grab a PUG...congratulations, now you get to do it all over again, because PUGs aren't forming anywhere else. FUUUN!

nugzta · Jan 05, 2008, 08:14 AM // 08:14

I'll sign this if Anet gives us 7 heroes at the same time, deal?

viper11025 · Jan 05, 2008, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Pug rewards sound nice for certain areas. But this brings up one question, Pug title farming.

Should that 1 guy that spent 5 hrs working his but off for vanquishing an area with heros get nothing to show for it?
Or should that PuG Rep farming get it?

Dosent sound fair to me ><. Not one bit.

/Notsigned

If theres something for completeing a misson in the game, like a little reward chest, similar to tresure chest in dungeons, or every HM vanquish or just the misson itself. Id sign for it. Seriously dosent seem fair, ppl play gw for the playablity not to start a whole new character for 1 thing. What about the guy that only owns factions? Or the person that work 60hrs a week killing them selves, and can only play 2hrs a day?

Well, thats my opinion. It whould really overflow the Gold sinks and make anet do even more nerfs.
"Play fair" -Quoted from G.Mother.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 05, 2008, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

make anti-social people fail

/not signed

In fact, I hope PUGs get worse and worse so you understand why we don't play with them.

Remove the hero cap already!

RotteN · Jan 05, 2008, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Best case: people PUG more, which implies that they're more "sociable" (if they were not, the PUG wouldn't work).

newsflash : pugs do not work, and the reason why people do not pug is not because they're anti-social. The sheer failure of pugs (only 1 of the 8 people has to behave like an idiot to ruin it for the other 7) in general is the main reason.

Getting a reward for pugging is like getting a lollypop after your brother was roadkilled. The con's still outweight the benefits by miles

Fitz Rinley · Jan 05, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Being sociable will not change with rewards. Those that want to be sociable should receive support for this style of play. There is plenty of support for being asocial in the form of farming benefits, etc. All measures taken to improve pug interest have hitherto been nerfs of benefits or forced cooperative play. Neither of these have increased our interest in pugging overall.

Some disincentives arise from differences over 2 years old ranging from the PvE vs PvP split, through HA control over UW/FoW access, through issues over titles, to those who make unwanted sexually explicit remarks and actions toward other players. Then there is the simple difficulty of those who can't play, won't play cooperatively, Leroy Jenkins, or berate eveyone (with upto two years more experience) for not doing it their way.

An additional set of titles for completing all missions and areas in pure PUG may increase the number of pugs. That is - if one completes all missions, bonuses, and clears all areas in pure PUG within one campaign - then they get base title, say *Tyrian Trooper.* If they do it again in HM then they get *Legendary Tryian Trooper.* If they get all three max titles then they get the additional title, "Super Trooper."

Alex Morningstar · Jan 05, 2008, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Consider this, Pugs are worse now than they ever were back when it was only prophecies and even just prophecies + factions. Why? People had to play with other people on average because the alternative was retarded henchmen.

Those were the most fun days in Guild Wars that I had. Sure, I have heros and henchmen and can blaze a hole in anything put in front of me with ease, pad my storage and get whatever I want, but it isn't as much fun. I like pugging, meeting new people, and playing with different experience/skill levels. That's why I bought a game to play online. I don't know why you people who play complain about playing with other people and h/h everything when there are tons of games out there that cater to that.

Just because a few people don't want to play with others doesn't mean everything should be that way. Pugging in essence, made you work for you kill. If you had skill, you could get the mission done, even if eventually, depending on that level of skill. Now it's a now now now now now mentality. It takes skill to lead a pack of noobs to the end of the line without RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing up. It takes skill to throw an unusual pack of people together because the holy warrior-monk-elementalist trinity had to go to bed for school in the middle of the night.

Make it something modest but influencial to be an obvious advantage; for each human player, increase the drop rate. It promotes pugging, it promotes guild/alliance groups.

Isileth · Jan 05, 2008, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Morningstar

Those were the most fun days in Guild Wars that I had.

The most fun days that you had.
Not everyone feels that way.

I purchased the game because I could play solo with AI. Now I should be given yet another disadvatange because I choose to play that way?

Its bad enough the limits on h/h, let alone adding more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Morningstar

I like pugging, meeting new people, and playing with different experience/skill levels. That's why I bought a game to play online.

And you still can do all of that.

I like playing with AI, being able to play when I want, how I want. I like having to rely on my skill, I like not teaming with random people who could do anything from swear at me to start trying to ask me out.

Both forms of gameplay are advertised, both are supported and both have had improvements made to them.
They both are, and should be, completely viable ways to play the game.

The people who choose not to PuG, have chosen not to for a reason. They shouldnt be made/bribed/disadvantaged until they either PuG or quit.
I know im not going to PuG no matter the changes. If h/h becomes to disadvantaged ill just quit. I didnt buy the game to PuG.

If others want to PuG I fully support that. But I dont.

Stop trying to get people who dont want to PuG to play how you prefer.

Nyktos · Jan 05, 2008, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugzta

I'll sign this if Anet gives us 7 heroes at the same time, deal?

And lets heroes use PvE skills. And consumables. And strengthens the skillset of henchmen for the people without NF or EotN. And fixes some of those AI bugs.If Anet does all that, I won't mind them rewarding playing with other humans. The fact is, there are plenty of disadvantages to H/H.

Besides, this won't encourage PUGing at all. The good players will still avoid PUGs like the plague, and the bad players will still PUG everything, meaning the few good players who decide to PUG will fail, thus eventually learning to avoid PUGs like the plague. If anything, it might increase the amount of guild groups. And maybe, just maybe those guild groups might PUG for that last player they need instead of asking if anyone has a hero.

Alex Morningstar · Jan 05, 2008, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

The most fun days that you had.
Not everyone feels that way.

I purchased the game because I could play solo with AI. Now I should be given yet another disadvatange because I choose to play that way?

Its bad enough the limits on h/h, let alone adding more.

And you still can do all of that.

I like playing with AI, being able to play when I want, how I want. I like having to rely on my skill, I like not teaming with random people who could do anything from swear at me to start trying to ask me out.

Both forms of gameplay are advertised, both are supported and both have had improvements made to them.
They both are, and should be, completely viable ways to play the game.

The people who choose not to PuG, have chosen not to for a reason. They shouldnt be made/bribed/disadvantaged until they either PuG or quit.
I know im not going to PuG no matter the changes. If h/h becomes to disadvantaged ill just quit. I didnt buy the game to PuG.

If others want to PuG I fully support that. But I dont.

Stop trying to get people who dont want to PuG to play how you prefer.

I honestly don't care if you don't want to pug. If you don't want to pug, I wouldn't want you in my group.

I also don't think it would be such a bad thing to add an incentive to help start pugging so that there is more of a social aspect. It comes down to the same thing in the end: It's an online game. The social aspect shouldn't be neglected because the people who want to play by themselves are too ingrained to go buy Oblivion.

On one hand you have PvP kids screaming about how the game has died, and PvE'ers that refuse to play with other people, even for what my opinion would be a modest incentive. I'd like GW to last a little longer for the health of my guild and so I don't have to go shopping for another game. For those of you that want to play by yourself, enjoy.

Isileth · Jan 05, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Morningstar

I honestly don't care if you don't want to pug. If you don't want to pug, I wouldn't want you in my group.

That really is a key point. The people who do want to PuG, already PuG.
Any changes that result in people switching to PuGs will either be for better rewards or because h/h just isnt viable anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Morningstar

I also don't think it would be such a bad thing to add an incentive to help start pugging so that there is more of a social aspect. It comes down to the same thing in the end: It's an online game. The social aspect shouldn't be neglected because the people who want to play by themselves are too ingrained to go buy Oblivion.

Oblivion is nothing like GW. I own Oblivion and do not enjoy it.

GW as far as im aware is completely unique. I have never run into another game quite like it.
Online games do not have to be social, it just means there are other players online. You can choose to be social, you can choose not to be.

Now I talk and play with friends online, but I think its fairly understandable for not everyone to start socialising with a random person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Morningstar

On one hand you have PvP kids screaming about how the game has died, and PvE'ers that refuse to play with other people, even for what my opinion would be a modest incentive. I'd like GW to last a little longer for the health of my guild and so I don't have to go shopping for another game. For those of you that want to play by yourself, enjoy.

How would this sort of change make it last longer?

The people who enjoy and want to pug are already out there doing it. Any changes to other playstyles will either pull people over for rewards and not social play or because their playstyle is no longer viable. Of course they may also just quit.

Now that isnt healthy for the game.

Allowing people to play either in a group or with AI with no restrictions is healthy however. Everyone can play how they want.

Saraphim · Jan 05, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Morningstar

Consider this, Pugs are worse now than they ever were back when it was only prophecies and even just prophecies + factions. Why? People had to play with other people on average because the alternative was retarded henchmen.

Really? I managed to pull those so-called retarded henchmen through Prophecies and Factions before heroes existed. I'll grant you that myself and my hubby played the harder missions together, but we still managed THK etc back when they were considered hard, with only hench.

If you're already in a half decent guild you shouldn't really be having issues with grouping, but that said I'm not especially bothered if you think you should be rewarded for playing the game your way, and I say "your way" as the game is designed for both solo and group play. It's on the box and it's part of their 'mission statement', for want of a better phrase.

However, I don't appreciate this sort of comment:

Quote:

This can encourage a bit more co-operation and may make anti-social people fail.

Apart from the pointless generalisation about people being anti-social if they don't pug, who the hell are you to state that you want someone else to "fail" at a game and the way that they play it, that is no way affecting your enjoyment? Particularly given that the game is intended to be able to be played solo or in a group.